I develop mainly line of business applications.No scientific operations. No complex calculations. Just tie User Interface to database. The only reason I use threading is to do some work in background and still keep UI responding.
This may not be the best approach but this is what I follow
1.Create an working application first(without threads) and give it to end user to play for the sake of feedback.
2.Once all requirements are locked, I try to use threads wherever it makes sense to improve performance.
The code for steps 1 & 2 is overwhelmingly different and threading code dominates the actual code.
1.Will F# make my life easier in case of Line of Business applications?
2.Are there any particular UI technologies that will fit best with F#? I mainly work on ASP.NET & Silverlight. WPF now & then.
3.Are there any good examples of Line of business applications/demos with F#?
I am not asking whether it is possible to develop Line of Business application in F#. I am asking whether F# will make my life easier to develop Line of Business applications when compared to C#? My main concern will be threading & UI synchronization.
I'm in the same boat as you, doing lots and lots of line-of-business type apps, nothing "fun" like games or compilers or search engines.
Your mileage will vary, but at least in my own experience a lot of dev teams are reluctant to jump right into F# because no one else on the team knows or has even heard of it. And right off the bat, you have to fight those questions like "what does it do differently from C#?" If you can convince your boss to let you write a few demo apps with it, go for it!
So with that being said, I find that C# isn't very good at business rules, but it handles GUIs like a champ; F#'s immutability makes GUI development awkward, but business rules and workflows feel natural. So the two languages have their own strengths and compliments one another's weaknesses.
In my own LOB apps, F# runs circles around C# in a few areas:
F#'s async workflows and mailbox processors orders of magnitude easier to work with than native threads and even task parallel library. Since using mailbox processors for interthread communication, I don't even remember the last time I've had to lock or thread.join() anything for syncronization at all.
Defining business rules engines and DSLs with unions FTW! Every non-trivial LOB app I've ever worked on has its own half-baked rules language and interpreter, and its almost always based on recursively switching on an enum to drill through the rules and find a match. Current project I have now contains 1300+ public classes, 900 or so are simple container classes to represent a rule. I think representing the rules as an F# union would substantially reduce the code bloat and make for a better engine.
Immutable code just works better -- if you get a new object with an invalid state, you don't have to search far to find the offending line of code, everything you need to know is on the call stack. If you have a mutable object with an invalid state, sometimes you have to spend a lot of time tracking it down. You can write immutable code in C#, but its really hard not to fall back on mutability, especially when you're modifying an object in a loop.
I hate nulls. I can't give an exact estimate, but it feels like half the bugs we get in production are null reference exceptions -- an object is improperly initialized and you don't know about it until you're 30 stack frames deep in code. I think F# would help us write more bug free code the first time around.
C# usually works well when:
You're writing GUI code or working with inherently mutable systems.
Exposing a DLL or web service to many different clients.
Your boss won't let you use the tools you want ;)
So if you can get over the "why would we want to use a new language hurdle", I think F# will indeed make your life easier.
That's a very hard question to answer - I think that F# would make some aspects of your life much easier and some a bit harder.
On the plus side, dealing with threading should be relatively painless - F# async workflows are a huge benefit. Also, F# Interactive makes rapidly iterating and exploring code very easy. To me, this is a huge benefit over C#, since I can test out minor code changes without going through a full build.
On the down side, the tooling for F# isn't where it is for C#, which means that you won't have access to GUI-builders, refactoring tools, etc. It's hard to say how big of a productivity hit this would cause you without knowing more about your scenario. One workaround would be to create a multi-language solution which has a thin C# front-end, but again the complexity may not be worth the benefit.
#Juliet and #kvb have good answers, I just want to reiterate how useful F# is for making threading easy. In my blog post "An RSS Dashboard in F#, part six (putting it all together with a WPF GUI)", I say
...Note the nifty use of ‘async’ here – I
use Async.StartImmediate, which means
all the code runs on the UI thread
(where the Click handler starts), but
I can still do non-blocking sleeps
that don’t jam up the UI. This is one
way that F# async just blows the doors
off everything else.
...
Our “ago” information (“3 minutes
ago”) will quickly get stale if we
don’t refresh it, so we start a loop
that redraws every minute. Once
again, F# async kicks butt, as I can
just write this as though it were a
synchronous loop running on the UI
thread, but the non-blocking sleep
call ensures that the UI stays live.
Awesome. ...
but that blog post is an example of using F# to hand-code the entire UI. That implies trading away all of the great GUI tooling you get with C# or VB. I imagine that a hybrid approach can potentially net almost all of the benefits of both (with the cost of having two projects in the solution where you previous just had one), but I don't (yet) have direct experience of my own to share here.
(Is there a canonical "problem example" of a C# GUI app where you need to add threading to improve perf or keep the app live during some long operation? If so, I should check it out.)
Something you might like to see:
The First Substantial Line of Business Application in F#
A big LOB app in F#.
To address this I posted some thoughts of mine in using F#,
http://fadsworld.wordpress.com/2011/04/13/f-in-the-enterprise-i/ http://fadsworld.wordpress.com/2011/04/17/fin-the-enterprise-ii-2/
I'm also planning to do a video tutorial to finish up the series and show how F# can contribute in UX programming.
I'm only talking in context of F# here.
-Fahad
Related
Is there a way/system to debug/monitor code without stopping execution?
In industrial automation control programming (PLC/PAC/DCS) it is possible to connect the debugger while the program is running, and see in the code editor the value of variables and expressions, without setting breakpoints or tracepoints.
As an example, let's have a F# multithreaded application, where code is executed in a continuous loop or triggered by timers. Is there a way to attach a debugger like Visual studio Debugger and see the values of variables and expressions (in the code editor or in a watch pane) WITHOUT interrupting the execution?
It doesn't matter if it's not synchronous, it's acceptable if the debugger/monitor does not capture all the code scans.
I am tasked to create an high level controller for a process plant and I would like to use C# or F# or even C++ with a managed or native application, instead of a PAC system. But being forced to interrupt execution to debug is a huge disadvantage in this kind of application.
UPDATE
First of all thanks to all for their answer.
Based on those answers, though, I realized that probably I need to reformulate my question as follows:
Is anyone aware of any library/framework/package/extension that allows to work with a native or managed application in windows or linux (C#, F# or C++) the exact same way as a PAC development platform, specifically:
1) Put the dev platform in "status" mode, where it shows automatically the runtime value for variables and expressions present in the code exceprt currently visible, without interrupting execution?
2) Create watch windows that show the runtime value of variables and expressions, again without interrupting execution?
Also, what I am looking for is something that (like any PAC platform) offers these features OUT OF THE BOX, without requiring any change in the application code (like adding log instructions).
Thank you in advance
UPDATE 2
It looks like there is something (see http://vsdevaids.webs.com/); does anyone know whether they are still available somewhere?
UPDATE 3
For those interested, I managed to download the last available release of VSDEVAIDS. I installed it and looks working, but it's pointless without a licence and couldn't find information on how to reach the author.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/vvdk2e0g6091r4h/VSDevAidsInstaller.msi
If somebody has better luck, please let me know.
this is a normal requirement - needing instrumentation / diagnostic data from a production system. Its not really a debugger. Its usually one of the first things you should establish in your system design.
Not knowing your system at all its hard to say what you need but generally they fall into 2 categories
human readable trace - something like log4net is what I would recommend
machine readable counters etc. Say 'number of widget shaving in last pass',..... This one is harder to generalize, you could layer it onto log4net too. Or invent your own pipe
With regards to your edited question, I can almost guarantee you that what you are looking for does not exist. Consequence-free debugging/monitoring of even moderate usefulness for production code with no prior effort? I'd have heard of it. Consider that both C++ and C# are extremely cross-platform. There are a few caveats:
There are almost certainly C++ compilers built for very specific hardware that do what you require. This hardware is likely to have very limited capabilities, and the compilers are likely to otherwise be inferior to their larger counterparts, such as gcc, clang, MSVC, to name a few.
Compile-time instrumentation can do what you require, although it affects speed and memory usage, and even stability, in my experience.
There ARE also frameworks that do what you require, but not without affecting your code. For example, if you are using WPF as your UI, it's possible to monitor anything directly related to the UI of your application. But...that's hardly a better solution than log4net.
Lastly, there are tools that can monitor EVERY system call your application makes for both Windows (procmon.exe/"Process Monitor" from SysInternals) and Linux (strace). There's very little you can't find out using these. That said, the ease of use is hardly what you're looking for, and strictly internal variables are still not going to be visible. Still might be something to consider if you know you'll be making system calls with the variables you're interested in and can set up adequate filtering.
Also, you should reconsider your "No impact on the code" requirement. There are .NET frameworks that can allow you to monitor an entire class merely by making a single function call during construction, or by deriving from a class in the framework. Many modern UIs are predicated on the UIs being able to be notified of any change to the data they are monitoring. Extensive effort has gone into making this as powerful and easy as possible. But it does require you to at least consider it when writing your code.
Many years ago (think 8 bit 6502/6809 days) you could buy (or usually rent, I seem to remember a figure of £40K to purchase one in the late 80s) a processor simulator, that would allow you replace the processor in your design with a pin compatible device that had a flying lead to the simulator box. this would allow things like capturing instructions/data leading up to a processor interrupt, or some other way of stopping the processor (even a 'push button to stop code' was possible). You could even step-backwards allowing you to see why an instruction or branch happened.
In these days of multi-core, nm-technology, I doubt there is such a thing.
I have been searching for this kind of features since quite a long time with no luck, unfortunately. Submitting the question to the StackOverflow community was sort of a "last resort", so now I'm ready to conclude that it doesn't exist.
VSDevAids (as #zzxyz pointed out) is not a solution, as it requires significant support from the application itself.
Pod cpu emulators (mentioned by #Neil) aka in-circuit emulators (ICE) and their evolutions are designed to thoroughly test the interaction between firmware and hardware, not so useful in high level programming (especially if managed like .NET).
Thanks for all contributions.
I have a multithreaded program which consist of a C# interop layer over C++ code.
I am setting threads affinity (like in this post) and it works on part of my code, however on second part it doesn't work. Can Intel Compiler / IPP / MKL libs / inline assembly interfere with external affinity setting?
UPDATE:
I can't post code as it is whole environment with many many dlls. I set environment values: OMP_NUM_THREADS=1 MKL_NUM_THREADS=1 IPP_NUM_THREADS=1. When it runs in single thread, it runs ok, but when I use number of C# threads and set affinity per thread (on a quad core machine), the initialization is going fine on separate cores, but during processing all threads start using the same core. Hope I am clear enough.
Thanks.
We've had this exact problem; we'd set our thread affinity to what we wanted, and the IPP/MKL functions would blow that away! The answer to your question is 'yes'.
Auto Parallelism
The issue is that, by default, the Intel libraries like to automatically execute multi-threaded versions of the routines. So, a single FFT gets computed by a number of threads setup by the library specifically for this purpose.
Intel's intent is that the programmer could get on with the job of writing a single threaded application, and the library would allow that single thread to benefit from a multicore processor by creating a number of threads for the maths work. A noble intent (your source code then need know nothing about the runtime hardware to extract the best achievable performance - handy sometimes), but a right bloody nuisance when one is doing one's own threading for one's own reasons.
Controlling the Library's Behaviour
Take a look at these Intel docs, section Support Functions / Threading Support Functions. You can either programmatically control the library's threading tendancies, or there's some environment variables you can set (like MKL_NUM_THREADS) before your program runs. Setting the number of threads was (as far as I recall) enough to stop the library doing its own thing.
Philosophical Essay Inspired By Answering Your Question (best ignored)
More or less everything Intel is doing in CPU design and software (e.g. IPP/MKL) is aimed at making it unnecessary for the programmer to Worry About Threads. You want good math performance? Use MKL. You want that for loop to go fast? Turn on Auto Parallelisation in ICC. You want to make the best use of cache? That's what Hyperthreading is for.
It's not a bad approach, and personally speaking I think that they've done a pretty good job. AMD too. Their architectures are quite good at delivering good real world performance improvements to the "Average Programmer" for the minimal investment in learning, re-writing and code development.
Irritation
However, the thing that irritates me a little bit (though I don't want to appear ungrateful!) is that whilst this approach works for the majority of programmers out there (which is where the profitable market is), it just throws more obstacles in the way of those programmers who want to spin their own parallelism. I can't blame Intel for that of course, they've done exactly the right thing; they're a market led company, they need to make things that will sell.
By offering these easy features the situation of there being too many under skilled and under trained programmers becomes more entrenched. If all programmers can get good performance without having to learn what auto parallelism is actually doing, then we'll never move on. The pool of really good programmers who actually know that stuff will remain really small.
Problem
I see this as a problem (though only a small one, I'll explain later). Computing needs to become more efficient for both economic and environmental reasons. Intel's approach allows for increased performance, and better silicon manufacturing techniques produces lower power consumption, but I always feel like it's not quite as efficient as it could be.
Example
Take the Cell processor at the heart of the PS3. It's something that I like to witter on about endlessly! However, IBM developed that with a completely different philosophy to Intel. They gave you no cache (just some fast static RAM instead to use as you saw fit), the architecture was pretty much pure NUMA, you had to do all your own parallelisation, etc. etc. The result was that if you really knew what you were doing you could get about 250GFLOPS out of the thing (I think the none-PS3 variants went to 320GLOPS), for 80Watts, all the way back in 2005.
It's taken Intel chips about another 6 or 7 years or so for a single device to get to that level of performance. That's a lot of Moores law growth. If the Cell got manufactured on Intel's latest silicon fab and was given as many transistors as Intel put into their big Xeons, it would still blow everything else away.
No Market
However, apart from PS3, Cell was a none-starter market proposition. IBM decided that it would never be a big enough seller to be worth their while. There just wasn't enough programmers out there who could really use it, and to indulge the few of us who could makes no commercial sense, which wouldn't please the shareholders.
Small Problem, Bigger Problem
I said earlier that this was only a small problem. Well, most of the world's computing isn't about high maths performance, it's become Facebook, Twitter, etc. That sort is all about I/O performance, and for that you don't need high maths performance. So in that sense the dependence on Intel Doing Everything For You so that the average programmer to get good math performance matters very little. There's just not enough maths being done to warrant a change in design philosophy.
In fact, I strongly suspect that the world will ultimately decide that you don't need a large chip at all, an ARM should do just fine. If that does come to pass then the market for Intel's very large chips with very good general purpose maths compute performance will vanish. Effectively those of use who want good maths performance are being heavily subsidised by those who want to fill enourmous data centres with Intel based hardware and put Intel PCs on every desktop.
We're simply lucky that Intel apparently has a desire to make sure that every big CPU they build is good at maths regardless of whether most of their users actually use that maths performance. I'm sure that desire has its foundations in marketing prowess and wanting the bragging rights, but those are not hard, commercially tangible artifacts that bring shareholder value.
So if those data centre guys decide that, actually, they'd rather save electricity and fill their data centres with ARMs, where does that leave Intel? ARMs are fine devices for the purpose for which they're intended, but they're not at the top of my list of Supercomputer chips. So where does that leave us?
Trend
My take on the current market trend is that 'Workstations' (PCs as we call them now) are going to start costing lots and lots of money, just like they did in the 1980s / early 90s.
I think that better supercomputers will become unaffordable because no one can spare the $10billions it would take to do the next big chip. If people stop having PCs there won't be a mass market for large all-out GPUs, so we won't even be able to use those instead. They're an exclusive thing, but super computers do play a vital role in our world and we do need them to get better. So who is going to pay for that? Not me, that's for sure.
Oops, that went on for quite a while...
I'm working on a web application framework, which uses MSSQL for data storage, mostly just does CRUD operations (but on arbitrarly complex structures), provides a WCF interface for rich Silverlight admin and has an MVC3 display (and some basic forms like user settings, etc).
It's getting quite good at being able to load, display, edit and save any (reasonably) complex data structure, in a user-friendly way.
But, I'm looking towards the future, and want to expand my capabilities (and it would be fun to learn new things along the way as well...) - so I've decided (in the light of what's coming for C#5...) to try to get some parallel/async optimalization... Now, I haven't even learned TPL and PLinq yet, so I'm happy for any advice there as well.
So my question is, what are possible areas where parallel processing maybe of help, and where does TPL and PLinq help me on that?
My guts tell me, I could try saving branches of a data structure in a parallel way to the database (this is where I'd expect the biggest peformance optimalization), I could perform some complex operations (file upload, mail sending maybe?) in a multithreaded enviroment, etc. Can I build complex SL UI views in parallel on the client? (Creating 60 data-bound fields on a view can cause "blinking"...) Can I create partial views (menus, category trees, search forms, etc) in MVC at once?
ps: If this turns into "Tell me everything about parallel stuffs" thread, I'm happy to make it community-wiki...
Remember that an asp.net web application is intrinsically a parallel application in any case. Requests can be serviced in parallel and this will all be managed by the asp.net framework. So there are two cases:
You have lots of users all hitting the site at once. In which case the parallel processing capability of the server is probably being used to capacity in any case.
You don't have lots of users all hitting the site at once. In which case the server is probably quite capable of dealing with the responses without parallel processing in a suitable fast response time.
Any time you start thinking about optimising something just because it might be fun, or because you just think you should make stuff faster then you are almost certainly guilty of premature optimization. Your efforts could almost certainly be better spent enriching the functionality of the framework, rather than making what is probably a plenty fast enough solution a little bit faster (at the cost of significantly increase complexity).
In answer to the question of where can TPL and PLINQ really help. In my opinion the main advantage of these technologies is in places in the application where you really do have a lot of long running blocking processes. For example if you have a situation where you call out several times to an external web service - it can be a significant advantage to make these calls in parallel. I would strongly question whether writing to a local database - or even a database on a different box on a local network would count as being a long running blocking process to the extent that this kind of parallelisation is of any significant value.
Pretty much all the examples you list fall in to the category of getting the PC to do something in parallel that it was previously doing in sequence. How many CPUs are on your server - how many are really free when the website is under load. Making something parallel does not necessarily equate to making it faster unless the process involved has some measure of time when you PC is sitting around doing nothing waiting for an external event.
First question is to ask the users / testers which bits seem slow. The only way to know for sure what's slowing you down is to use a profiler like dottrace. The results are sometimes surprising.
If you do find something, parallel processing may not be the answer. You need to remember that there is an overhead in splitting tasks up, so if the task is fairly quick in the first place, it could end up being slower. You also have to consider the added complexity, e.g. what happens if half a task succeeds, and half fails? (Although TPL and PLINQ hide you from this to an extend)
Have fun, but I wondering whether this is a case of 1) solution chasing a problem, and 2) premature optimization.
Learning about threading is fascinating no doubt and there are some really good resources to do that. But, my question is threading applied explicitly either as part of design or development in real-world applications.
I have worked on some extensively used and well-architected .NET apps in C# but found no trace of explicit usage.Is there no real need due to this being managed by CLR or is there any specific reason?
Also, any example of threading coded in widely used .NET apps. in Codelplex or Gooogle Code are also welcome.
The simplest place to use threading is performing a long operation in a GUI while keeping the UI responsive.
If you perform the operation on the UI thread, the entire GUI will freeze until it finishes. (Because it won't run a message loop)
By executing it on a background thread, the UI will remain responsive.
The BackgroundWorker class is very useful here.
is threading applied explicitly either as part of design or development in real-world applications.
In order to take full advantage of modern, multi-core systems, threading must be part of the design from the start. While it's fairly easy (especially in .NET 4) to find small portions of code to thread, to get real scalability, you need to design your algorithms to handle being threaded, preferably at a "high level" in your code. The earlier this is done in the design phases, the easier it is to properly build threading into an application.
Is there no real need due to this being managed by CLR or is there any specific reason?
There is definitely a need. Threading doesn't come for free - it must be added in by the developer. The main reason this isn't found very often, especially in open source code, is really more a matter of difficulty. Even using .NET 4, properly designing algorithms to thread in a scalable, safe manner is difficult.
That entirely depends on the application.
For a client app that ever needs to do any significant work (or perform other potentially long-running tasks, such as making web service calls) I'd expect background threads to be used. This could be achieved via BackgroundWorker, explicit use of the thread pool, explicit use of Parallel Extensions, or creating new threads explicitly.
Web services and web applications are somewhat less likely to create their own threads, in my experience. You're more likely to effectively treat each request as having a separate thread (even if ASP.NET moves it around internally) and perform everything synchronously. Of course there are web applications which either execute asynchronously or start threads for other reasons - but I'd say this comes up less often than in client apps.
Definitely a +1 on the Parallel Extensions to .NET. Microsoft has done some great work here to improve the ThreadPool. You used to have one global queue which handled all tasks, even if they were spawned from a worker thread. Now they have a lock-free global queue and local queues for each worker thread. That's a very nice improvement.
I'm not as big a fan of things like Parallel.For, Parallel.Foreach, and Parallel.Invoke (regions), as I believe they should be pure language extensions rather than class libraries. Obviously, I understand why we have this intermediate step, but it's inevitable for C# to gain language improvements for concurrency and it's equally inevitable that we'll have to go back and change our code to take advantage of it :-)
Overall, if you're looking at building concurrent apps in .NET, you owe it to yourself to research the heck out of the Parallel Extensions. I also think, given that this is a pretty nascent effort from Microsoft, you should be very vocal about what works for you and what doesn't, independent of what you perceive your own skill level to be with concurrency. Microsoft is definitely listening, but I don't think there are that many people yet using the Parallel Extensions. I was at VSLive Redmond yesterday and watched a session on this topic and continue to be impressed with the team working on this.
Disclosure: I used to be the Marketing Director for Visual Studio and am now at a startup called Corensic where we're building tools to detect bugs in concurrent apps.
Most real-world usages of threading I've seen is to simply avoid blocking - UI, network, database calls, etc.
You might see it in use as BeginXXX and EndXXX method pairs, delegate.BeginInvoke calls, Control.Invoke calls.
Some systems I've seen, where threading would be a boon, actually use the isolation principle to achieve multiple "threads", in other words, split the work down into completely unrelated chunks and process them all independently of each other - "multi-threading" (or many-core utilisation) is automagically achieved by simply running all the processes at once.
I think it's fair to say you find a lot of stock-and-trade applications (data presentation) largely do not require massive parallisation, nor are they always able to be architected to be suitable for it. The examples I've seen are all very specific problems. This may attribute to why you've not seen any noticable implementations of it.
The question of whether to make use of an explicit threading implementation is normally a design consideration as others have mentioned here. Trying to implement concurrency as an afterthought usually requires a lot of radical and wholesale changes.
Keep in mind that simply throwing threads into an application doesn't inherently increase performance or speed, given that there is a cost in managing each thread, and also perhaps some memory overhead (not to mention, debugging it can be fun).
From my experience, the most common place to implement a threading design has been in Windows Services (background applications) and on applications which have had use case scenarios where a volume of work could be easily split up into smaller parcels of work (and handed off to threads to complete asynchronously).
As for examples, you could check out the Microsoft Robotics Studio (as far as I know there's a free version now) - it comes with an redistributable (I can't find it as a standalone download) of the Concurrency and Coordination Runtime, there's some coverage of it on Microsoft's Channel 9.
As mentioned by others the Parallel Extensions team (blog is here) have done some great work with thread safety and parallel execution and you can find some samples/examples on the MSDN Code site.
Threading is used in all sorts of scenarios, anything network based depends on threading, whether explicit (sockets stuff) or implicit (web services). Threading keeps UI responsive. And windows services having multiple parallel runs doing the same things in processing data working through queues that need to be processed.
Those are just the most common ones I've seen.
Most answers reference long-running tasks in a GUI application. Another very common usage scenario in my experience is Producer/Consumer queues. We have many utility applications that have to perform web requests etc. often to large number of endpoints. We use producer/consumer threading pattern (usually by integrating a custom thread pool) to allow high parallelization of these tasks.
In fact, at this very moment I am checking up on an application that uploads a 200MB file to 200 different FTP locations. We use SmartThreadPool and run up to around 50 uploads in parallel, which allows the whole batch to complete in under one hour (as opposed to over 50 hours were it all uploads to happen consecutively - so in our usage we find almost straight linear improvements in time).
As modern day programmers we love abstractions so we use threads by calling Async methods or BeginInvoke and by using things like BackgroundWorker or PFX in .Net 4.
Yet sometimes there is a need to do the threading yourself. For Example in a web app I built I have a mail queue that I add to from within the app and there is a background thread that sends the emails. If the thread notices that the queue is filling up faster that it is sending it creates another thread if it then sees that that thread is idle it kills it. This can be done with a higher level abstraction I guess but i did it manually.
I can't resist the edge case - in some applications where either a high degree of operational certainty must be achieved or a high degree of operational uncertainty must be tolerated, then threads and processes are considered from initial architecture design all the way through end delivery
Case 1 - for systems that must achieve extremely high levels of operational reliability, three completely separate subsystems using three different mechanisms may be used in a voting architecture - Spawn 3 threads/proceses across each of the voters, wait for them to conclude/die/be killed, and proceed IFF they all say the same thing - example - complex avionic susystems
Case 2 - for systems that must deal with a high degree of operational uncertainty - do the same thing, but once something/anything gets back to you, kill off the stragglers and go forth with the best answer you got - example - complex intraday trading algorithms endeavoring to destroy the business that employ them :-)
In python the yield keyword can be used in both push and pull contexts, I know how to do the pull context in c# but how would I achieve the push. I post the code I am trying to replicate in c# from python:
def coroutine(func):
def start(*args,**kwargs):
cr = func(*args,**kwargs)
cr.next()
return cr
return start
#coroutine
def grep(pattern):
print "Looking for %s" % pattern
try:
while True:
line = (yield)
if pattern in line:
print line,
except GeneratorExit:
print "Going away. Goodbye"
If what you want is an "observable collection" -- that is, a collection which pushes results at you rather than letting the consumer pull them -- then you probably want to look into the Reactive Framework extensions. Here's an article on it:
http://www.infoq.com/news/2009/07/Reactive-Framework-LINQ-Events
Now, as you note, you can build both "push" and "pull" style iterators easily if you have coroutines available. (Or, as Thomas points out, you can build them with continuations as well.) In the current version of C# we do not have true coroutines (or continuations). However, we are very concerned about the pain users feel around asynchronous programming.
Implementing fiber-based coroutines as a first-class language feature is one technique that could possibly be used to make asynchronous programming easier, but that is just one possible idea of many that we are at present researching. If you have a really solid awesome scenario where coroutines do a better job than anything else -- including the reactive framework -- then I'd love to hear more about it. The more realistic data we have about what real problems people are facing in asynchronous programming, the more likely we are to come up with a good solution. Thanks!
UPDATE: We have recently announced that we are adding coroutine-like asynchronous control flows to the next version of C# and VB. You can try it yourself with our Community Technology Preview edition, which you can download here.
C# does not have general co-routines. A general co-routine is where the co-routine has its own stack, i.e. it can invoke other methods and those methods can "yield" values. Implementation of general co-routines requires making some smart things with stacks, possibly up to and including allocating stack frames (the hidden structures which contain local variables) on the heap. This can be done, some languages do that (e.g. Scheme), but it is somewhat tricky to do it right. Also, many programmers find the feature difficult to understand.
General co-routines can be emulated with threads. Each thread has its own stack. In a co-routine setup, both threads (the initial caller, and the thread for the co-routine) will alternate control, they will never actually run simultaneously. The "yield" mechanism is then an exchange between the two threads, and as such it is expensive (synchronization, a roundtrip through the OS kernel and scheduler...). Also, there is much room for memory leaks (the co-routine must be explicitly "stopped", otherwise the waiting thread will stick forever). Thus, this is rarely done.
C# provides a bastardized-down co-routine feature called iterators. The C# compiler automatically converts the iterator code into a specific state class, with local variables becoming class fields. Yielding is then, at the VM level, a plain return. Such a thing is doable as long as the "yield" is performed from the iterator code itself, not from a method which the iterator code invokes. C# iterators already cover many use cases and the C# designers were unwilling to go further down the road to continuations. Some sarcastic people are keen to state that implementing full-featured continuations would have prevented C# from being as efficient as its arch-enemy Java (efficient continuations are feasible, but this requires quite some work with the GC and the JIT compiler).
Maybe this will help.
http://blogs.msdn.com/ericlippert/archive/2009/07/23/iterator-blocks-part-five-push-vs-pull.aspx
thanks #NickLarsen, you helped me remember the new stuff that MS have introduced, the IObservable interface.
link http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd783449(VS.100).aspx
Actually .NET does not make "incorrect assumptions" about thread affinity, in fact it totally decouples the notion of a .NET level thread from the OS level thread.
What you have to do is associate a logical .NET thread state with your fiber ( for that you need the CLR Hosting API's but you don'T need to write a host yourself you can use those needed from your own application directly ) and everything, lock tracking, exception handling works normally again.
An example can be found here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/cc164086.aspx
Btw Mono 2.6 contains low level Coroutine support and can be used to implement all higher level primitives easily.
I would love to see a fiber-based API for .Net.
I attempted to use the native fiber API in C# through p/invoke a while back, but because the runtime's exception handling (incorrectly) makes thread-based assumptions, things broke (badly) when exceptions happened.
One "killer app" for a fiber-based coroutine API is game programming; certain types of AI require a "lightweight" thread that you can time-slice at will. For example, game behavior trees require the ability to "pulse" the decision code every frame, allowing the AI code to cooperatively yield back to the caller when the decision slice is up. This is possible to implement with hard threads, but much, much more complicated.
So while true fiber use-cases are not mainstream, they definitely exist, and a small niche of us .Net coders would cheer mightily if the existing bugs in the fiber subsystem were worked out.
Well, i gave a try developing a full library to manage coroutines with only a single thread. The hard part was to call coroutines inside coroutines...and to return parameters, but finally i reached a pretty good result here. The only warning are that blocking I/O operations must be made through tasks and alll "return" must be replaced with "yield return".
With the application server based on this library i was able to nearly double the requests made with a standard async/await based on IIS. (Seek for Node.Cs and Node.Cs.Musicstore on github to try it at home)