ThreadPool.SetMinThreads does not create any new threads - c#

I am trying to figure out exactly what impact does ThreadPool.SetMinThreads makes.
According to official documentation it says
Sets the minimum number of threads the thread pool creates on demand, as new requests are made, before switching to an algorithm for managing thread creation and destruction.
In my understanding, as a developer, I'm suppose to have control over mechanism on how to spin new threads on demand, so they are created and waiting in the idle state, in situations when for example I'm expecting load of request coming at specific time.
And this is exactly what I initially thought SetMinThreads method is designed for.
But when I started actually playing with it - I got really weird results.
So I'm having my ASP.NET .NET5 application, and in controller action I'm having code like this:
ThreadPool.SetMinThreads(32000, 1000);
And of course I'm intuitively expecting runtime to create 32K of worker threads and 1000 io threads for me.
And when I do that, and then call other method - Process.GetCurrentProcess().Threads to get all the process' threads, and print statistic on them, I get something like this
Standby - 17
Running - 4
I thought that maybe app needs some time to spin new threads, so I've tried diffrent delays, 1min, 5min and 10mins.
But result always stays the same, I get 15-20 Standby and 2-4 Running.
So then comes logical question - what exactly SetMinThreads method is doing at all? The description provided by MSDN does not seem very helpful.
And another logical question - what if I wanted to force dotnet to spin 32K of new threads in idle state - does dotnet provide any mechanism for it at all?

The ThreadPool.SetMinThreads sets the minimum number of threads that the ThreadPool creates instantly on demand. That's the key phrase, and it is indeed quite unintuitive. The ThreadPool currently¹ (.NET 5) works in two modes:
When a new request for work arrives, and all the threads in the pool are busy, create instantly a new thread in order to satisfy the request.
When a new request for work arrives, and all the threads in the pool are busy, queue the request, and wait for 1 sec before creating a new thread, hoping that in the meantime one of the worker threads will complete its current work, and will become available for serving the queued request.
The ThreadPool.SetMinThreads sets the threshold between these two modes. It does not give you control over the number of threads that are alive right now. Which is not very satisfying, but it is what it is. If you want to force the ThreadPool to create 1,000 threads instantly, you must also sent an equal number of requests for work, additionally to calling ThreadPool.SetMinThreads(1000, 1000). Something like this should do the trick:
ThreadPool.SetMinThreads(1000, 1000);
Task[] tasks = Enumerable.Range(0, 1000)
.Select(_ => Task.Run(() => Thread.Sleep(100)))
.ToArray();
Honestly I don't think that anyone does that. Creating a new Thread is quite fast in human time (it requires around 0.25 milliseconds per thread in my PC), so for a system that receives requests from humans, the overhead of creating a thread shouldn's have any measurable impact. On the other hand 0.25 msec is an eon in computer time, when you want a thread to do a tiny amount of work (in the range of nanoseconds), like adding something in a List<T>. That's why the ThreadPool was invented in the first place: To amortize the overhead of thread-creation for tiny but numerous workloads.
Be aware that creating a new Thread has also a memory cost, which is generally more significant than the time cost: each thread requires at least 1 MB of RAM for its stack. So creating 32,000 threads will tie down 32 GB of memory just for stack space. This is not very efficient. That's why in recent years asynchronous programming has become so prominent in server-side web development, because it allows to do more work with less threads.
¹ There is nothing preventing the Microsoft engineers from changing/twicking the implementation of the ThreadPool in the future. AFAIK this has already happened at least once in the past.

Related

Threads eating into CPU performance

I have a console application(c#) where I have to call various third party API's and collect data. This I have to do simultaneously for different users. I am using threads for it. But as the number of users are increasing this service is eating into the CPU performance. It is affecting other processes. Is there a way we can use threads for parallel processing but do not affect the CPU performance in a huge way.
I assume from your question that you're creating threads manually, and so the quick way to answer this is to suggest that you use an API like the Task Parallel Library, because this will take an arbitrary number of tasks and try to use a sensible number of threads to process them - so given 500 API requests, it would limit itself to just a few threads.
However, to answer in more detail: the typical reason that you would see this problem is that code is creating too many threads. Threads are not free resources - they are expensive.
A made up example based on your question might be this:
you have 5 3rd party APIs that you need to call, and each is going to return ~1MB of data per user
you call each API on a separate background thread, for each user
you have 100 users
you therefore have created 500 threads in total, each of which is waiting on data from the network
The problem here is that there are 500 threads the program is trying to manage, and they are all waiting on the slowest piece of the system - the network.
More simply, we are trying to download 500 pieces of data at once (which in this example would mean everything finishes slowly), rather than downloading them one at a time so that individual items will finish earlier. Because each thread will be doing nothing (just waiting for the network), the CPU will switch between idle threads continually. As you increase your number of users, the number of threads increases - which increases the CPU usage just for switch between threads, even though each thread is actually downloading more slowly. This is (approximately) why you'll be seeing slower performance as your user count goes up.
A better example would be to take the same scenario and use just one background thread:
you have 5 3rd party APIs that you need to call, and each is going to return ~1MB of data per user
each API call is put into a queue and the queue is processed by a single thread
you have 100 users
you therefore have 1 thread running in the background which is using the full available bandwidth of the network for each request
In this example, your CPU usage will be pretty consistent - no matter how many users you have, there is only one background thread running, so context switching is minimised. Each individual API call runs at the maximum rate of the network card and so finishes as quickly as possible.
The reality is that one thread is probably not enough: a single request is unlikely to saturate the network, as there will be limiting factors elsewhere. But this is something you can tune later: maybe 2 or 3 threads would be more performant, but 4 threads would be slower again. The general rule when threading is to start small and work up, not to create a thread for each piece of work.
First, run a profiler and checkout some refactoring tools to see if you can perform code optimization to resolve the issue. If your application is still overloading the server then setup or purchase load balancing. In the meantime, if you are running the latest OS's you could try setting a hacky CPU rate limit...however, that may not work for the needs you described.

threading higher priority for a not known in advance thread

I create about 5000 background workers that do intensive work in a console app. I'm also using an external library that instantiates an object, say ObjectX. At some point, say t0, ObjectX tries to obtain a thread from an os thread pool and start it, but I have no control on how it obtains this thread. Things work fine for 100 background workers. For 1000 background workers it takes about 10 minutes after t0 for ObjectX to obtain and start a thread.
Is there a way to set, in advance, a high priority for any threads that will be started in the future by an object?
As I think the answer to 1 is "no", is there a way to limit the priority of the background workers so as to somehow favor everything else? Even though I only want to 'favor' ObjectX.
The goal would be to always have available resources to run the thread launched by ObjectX, no matter how overloaded the machine is.
I'm using C# and the .Net fr 3.5, on a Windows 64bit machine.
The way threads work is that they are given processor time by the OS. When this happens this is called a context switch. A context switch takes about 2000-8000 cycles (i.e. depending on processor 2000-8000 instructions). If the OS has many CPUs or cores, it may not need to take the CPU away from one thread and give it to another--avoiding a context switch. There can only be one thread per CPU running at a time, when you have more threads that need CPU than CPUs then you're forcing a context switch. Context switches are performed no faster than the system quantum (every 20ms for client and 120ms for server).
If you have 5000 background workers you effectively have 5000 threads. Each of those threads is potentially vying for CPU time. On a client version of windows, that means 250,000 context switches per second. i.e. 500,000,000 to 2,000,000,000 cycles per second are devoted simply to switching between threads. (i.e. over and above the work your threads are performing) if it could even process that many context switches per second.
The recommended practice is to only have one CPU-bound thread per processor. A CPU-bound thread is one that spends very little time "waiting". The UI thread is not a CPU-bound thread. If your background workers are spending a lot of time waiting for locks, then they may not be CPU-bound either--but, in general, background worker threads are CPU-bound. (otherwise, what would be the point of using a background worker?).
Also, the OS spends a lot of time figuring out what thread needs to get the CPU next. When you start changing thread priorities you interfere with that and most of the time end up making your entire system slower (not just your application) rather than faster.
Update:
On a related not, it takes about 200,000 cycles to create a new thread and about 100,000 cycles to destroy a thread.
Update 2:
If the impetus of the question isn't simply "If it can be done" but to be able to scale workload, then as #JoshW/#Servy mention, using something like the Producer/Consumer Pattern would allow for scalability that could facilitate horizontal scaling to multiple computers/nodes via a queue or a service bus. Simple starting up an in ordinate amount of threads is not scalable beyond the # of CPUs. If what you truly want is an architecture that can scaled out because "available resources...how overloaded the machine is" is simply impossible.
Personally I think this is a bad idea, however... given the comments you have made on other answers and your request that "No matter how many background workers are create that ObjectX runs as soon as possible"... You could conceivably force your background workers to block using a ManualResetEvent.
For example at the top of your worker code you could block on a Manual reset event with the WaitOne method. This manual reset could be static or passed as an input parameter and wherever your ObjectX gets instantiated/called or whatever, you call the .Reset method on your ManualResetEvent. This would block all your workers at the WaitOne line. Next at the bottom of the code that runs ObjectX, call the ManualResetEvent.Set() method and that will unblock the workers.
Note this is NOT an efficient way to manage your threads, but if you "just have to make it work" and have time later to improve it... I suppose it's one possible solution.
The goal would be to always have available resources to run the thread launched by ObjectX, no matter how overloaded the machine is.
Then thread priorities might not be the right tool.. Remember, thread priorities are evil
In general, windows is not a real-time OS; especially, win32 does not even attempt to be soft real-time (IIRC, the NT kernel tried, at some point, to have at least support for soft real time subsystems, but I may be wrong). So there is no guarantee about available resources, or timing.
Also, are you worried about other threads in the system? Those threads are out of your control (what if the other threads are already at the system max priority?).
If you are worried about threads in your app... you can control and throttle them, using less threads/workers to do more work (batching work in bigger units, and submitting it to a worker, for example, or by using TPL or other tools that will handle and throttle thread usage for you)
That said, you could intercept when a thread is created (look for example this question https://stackoverflow.com/a/3802316/863564) see if it was created for ObjectX (for example, checking its name) and use SetThreadPriority to boost it.

ThreadPool not starting new Thread instantly

I have a C# Windows Service that starts up various objects (Class libraries). Each of these objects has its own "processing" logic that start up multiple long running processing threads by using the ThreadPool. I have one example, just like this:
System.Threading.ThreadPool.QueueUserWorkItem(new System.Threading.WaitCallback(WorkerThread_Processing));
This works great. My app works with no issues, and my threads work well.
Now, for regression testing, I am starting those same objects up, but from a C# Console app rather than a Windows Service. It calls the same exact code (because it is invoking the same objects), however the WorkerThread_Processing method delays for up to 20 seconds before starting.
I have gone in and switched from the ThreadPool to a Thread, and the issue goes away. What could be happening here? I know that I am not over the MaxThreads count (I am starting 20 threads max).
The ThreadPool is specifically not intended for long-running items (more specifically, you aren't even necessarily starting up new threads when you use the ThreadPool, as its purpose is to spread the tasks over a limited number of threads).
If your task is long running, you should either break it up into logical sections that are put on the ThreadPool (or use the new Task framework), or spin up your own Thread object.
As to why you're experiencing the delay, the MSDN Documentation for the ThreadPool class says the following:
As part of its thread management strategy, the thread pool delays before creating threads. Therefore, when a number of tasks are queued in a short period of time, there can be a significant delay before all the tasks are started.
You only know that the ThreadPool hasn't reached its maximum thread count, not how many threads (if any) it actually has sitting idle.
The thread pool's maximum number of threads value is the maximum number that it can create. It is not the maximum number that are already created. The thread pool has logic that prevents it from spinning up a whole bunch of threads instantly.
If you call ThreadPool.QueueUserWorkItem 10 times in quick succession, the thread pool will not create 10 threads immediately. It will start a thread, delay, start another, etc.
I seem to recall that the delay was 500 milliseconds, but I can't find the documentation to verify that.
Here it is: The Managed Thread Pool:
The thread pool has a built-in delay (half a second in the .NET
Framework version 2.0) before starting new idle threads. If your
application periodically starts many tasks in a short time, a small
increase in the number of idle threads can produce a significant
increase in throughput. Setting the number of idle threads too high
consumes system resources needlessly.
You can control the number of idle threads maintained by the thread
pool by using the GetMinThreads and SetMinThreads
Note that this quote is taken from the .NET 3.5 version of the documentation. The .NET 4.0 version does not mention a delay.

Launching multiple tasks from a WCF service

I need to optimize a WCF service... it's quite a complex thing. My problem this time has to do with tasks (Task Parallel Library, .NET 4.0). What happens is that I launch several tasks when the service is invoked (using Task.Factory.StartNew) and then wait for them to finish:
Task.WaitAll(task1, task2, task3, task4, task5, task6);
Ok... what I see, and don't like, is that on the first call (sometimes the first 2-3 calls, if made quickly one after another), the final task starts much later than the others (I am looking at a case where it started 0.5 seconds after the others). I tried calling
ThreadPool.SetMinThreads(12*Environment.ProcessorCount, 20);
at the beginning of my service, but it doesn't seem to help.
The tasks are all database-related: I'm reading from multiple databases and it has to take as little time as possible.
Any idea why the last task is taking so long? Is there something I can do about it?
Alternatively, should I use the thread pool directly? As it happens, in one case I'm looking at, one task had already ended before the last one started - I would had saved 0.2 seconds if I had reused that thread instead of waiting for a new one to be created. However, I can not be sure that that task will always end so quickly, so I can't put both requests in the same task.
[Edit] The OS is Windows Server 2003, so there should be no connection limit. Also, it is hosted in IIS - I don't know if I should create regular threads or using the thread pool - which is the preferred version?
[Edit] I've also tried using Task.Factory.StartNew(action, TaskCreationOptions.LongRunning); - it doesn't help, the last task still starts much later (around half a second later) than the rest.
[Edit] MSDN1 says:
The thread pool has a built-in delay
(half a second in the .NET Framework
version 2.0) before starting new idle
threads. If your application
periodically starts many tasks in a
short time, a small increase in the
number of idle threads can produce a
significant increase in throughput.
Setting the number of idle threads too
high consumes system resources
needlessly.
However, as I said, I'm already calling SetMinThreads and it doesn't help.
I have had problems myself with delays in thread startup when using the (.Net 4.0) Task-object. So for time-critical stuff I now use dedicated threads (... again, as that is what I was doing before .Net 4.0.)
The purpose of a thread pool is to avoid the operative system cost of starting and stopping threads. The threads are simply being reused. This is a common model found in for example internet servers. The advantage is that they can respond quicker.
I've written many applications where I implement my own threadpool by having dedicated threads picking up tasks from a task queue. Note however that this most often required locking that can cause delays/bottlenecks. This depends on your design; are the tasks small then there would be a lot of locking and it might be faster to trade some CPU in for less locking: http://www.boyet.com/Articles/LockfreeStack.html
SmartThreadPool is a replacement/extension of the .Net thread pool. As you can see in this link it has a nice GUI to do some testing: http://www.codeproject.com/KB/threads/smartthreadpool.aspx
In the end it depends on what you need, but for high performance I recommend implementing your own thread pool. If you experience a lot of thread idling then it could be beneficial to increase the number of threads (beyond the recommended cpucount*2). This is actually how HyperThreading works inside the CPU - using "idle" time while doing operations to do other operations.
Note that .Net has a built-in limit of 25 threads per process (ie. for all WCF-calls you receive simultaneously). This limit is independent and overrides the ThreadPool setting. It can be increased, but it requires some magic: http://www.csharpfriends.com/Articles/getArticle.aspx?articleID=201
Following from my prior question (yep, should have been a Q against original message - apologies):
Why do you feel that creating 12 threads for each processor core in your machine will in some way speed-up your server's ability to create worker threads? All you're doing is slowing your server down!
As per MSDN do
As per the MSDN docs: "You can use the SetMinThreads method to increase the minimum number of threads. However, unnecessarily increasing these values can cause performance problems. If too many tasks start at the same time, all of them might appear to be slow. In most cases, the thread pool will perform better with its own algorith for allocating threads. Reducing the minimum to less than the number of processors can also hurt performance.".
Issues like this are usually caused by bumping into limits or contention on a shared resource.
In your case, I am guessing that your last task(s) is/are blocking while they wait for a connection to the DB server to come available or for the DB to respond. Remember - if your invocation kicks off 5-6 other tasks then your machine is going to have to create and open numerous DB connections and is going to kick the DB with, potentially, a lot of work. If your WCF server and/or your DB server are cold, then your first few invocations are going to be slower until the machine's caches etc., are populated.
Have you tried adding a little tracing/logging using the stopwatch to time how long it takes for your tasks to connect to the DB server and then execute their operations?
You may find that reducing the number of concurrent tasks you kick off actually speeds things up. Try spawning 3 tasks at a time, waiting for them to complete and then spawn the next 3.
When you call Task.Factory.StartNew, it uses a TaskScheduler to map those tasks into actual work items.
In your case, it sounds like one of your Tasks is delaying occasionally while the OS spins up a new Thread for the work item. You could, potentially, build a custom TaskScheduler which already contained six threads in a wait state, and explicitly used them for these six tasks. This would allow you to have complete control over how those initial tasks were created and started.
That being said, I suspect there is something else at play here... You mentioned that using TaskCreationOptions.LongRunning demonstrates the same behavior. This suggests that there is some other factor at play causing this half second delay. The reason I suspect this is due to the nature of TaskCreationOptions.LongRunning - when using the default TaskScheduler (LongRunning is a hint used by the TaskScheduler class), starting a task with TaskCreationOptions.LongRunning actually creates an entirely new (non-ThreadPool) thread for that Task. If creating 6 tasks, all with TaskCreationOptions.LongRunning, demonstrates the same behavior, you've pretty much guaranteed that the problem is NOT the default TaskScheduler, since this is going to always spin up 6 threads manually.
I'd recommend running your code through a performance profiler, and potentially the Concurrency Visualizer in VS 2010. This should help you determine exactly what is causing the half second delay.
What is the OS? If you are not running the server versions of windows, there is a connection limit. Your many threads are probably being serialized because of the connection limit.
Also, I have not used the task parallel library yet, but my limited experience is that new threads are cheap to make in the context of networking.
These articles might explain the problem you're having:
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/wenlong/archive/2010/02/11/why-are-wcf-responses-slow-and-setminthreads-does-not-work.aspx
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/wenlong/archive/2010/02/11/why-does-wcf-become-slow-after-being-idle-for-15-seconds.aspx
seeing as you're using .Net 4, the first article probably doesn't apply, but as the second article points out the ThreadPool terminates idle threads after 15 seconds which might explain the problem you're having and offers a simple (though a little hacky) solution to get around it.
Whether or not you should be using the ThreadPool directly wouldn't make any difference as I suspect the task library is using it for you underneath anyway.
One third-party library we have been using for a while might help you here - Smart Thread Pool. You still get the same benefits of using the task libraries, in that you can have the return values from the threads and get any exception information from them too.
Also, you can instantiate threadpools so that when you have multiple places each needing a threadpool (so that a low priority process doesn't start eating into the quota of some high priority process) and oh yeah you can set the priority of the threads in the pool too which you can't do with the standard ThreadPool where all the threads are background threads.
You can find plenty of info on the codeplex page, I've also got a post which highlights some of the key differences:
http://theburningmonk.com/2010/03/threading-introducing-smartthreadpool/
Just on a side note, for tasks like the one you've mentioned, which might take some time to return, you probably shouldn't be using the threadpool anyway. It's recommended that we should avoid using the threadpool for any blocking tasks like that because it hogs up the threadpool which is used by all sorts of things by the framework classes, like handling timer events, etc. etc. (not to mention handling incoming WCF requests!). I feel like I'm spamming here but here's some of the info I've gathered around the use of the threadpool and some useful links at the bottom:
http://theburningmonk.com/2010/03/threading-using-the-threadpool-vs-creating-your-own-threads/
well, hope this helps!

Limiting concurrent threads equal to number of processors?

Are there any benefits to limiting the number of concurrent threads doing a given task to equal the number of processors on the host system? Or better to simply trust libraries such as .NET's ThreadPool to do the right thing ... even if there are 25 different concurrent threads happening at any one given moment?
Most threads are not CPU bound, they end up waiting on IO or other events. If you look at your system now, I imagine you have 100's (if not 1000's) of threads executing with no problems. By that measure, you're probably best just leaving the .NET thread pool to do the right thing!
However, if the threads were all CPU bound (e.g. something like ray tracing) then it would be a good idea to limit the number of threads to the number of cores, otherwise chances are that context switching will begin to hurt performance.
The threadpool already does a reasonably good job at this. It tries to limit the number of running threads to the number of CPU cores in your machine. When one thread ends, it immediately schedules another eligible thread for execution.
Every 0.5 seconds, it evaluates what is going on with the running threads. When the threads have been running too long, it assumes they are stalled and allows another thread to start executing. You'll now have more threads running than you have CPU cores. This can go up to the maximum number of allowed thread, as set by ThreadPool.SetMaxThreads().
Starting around .NET 2.0 SP1, the default maximum number of threads was increased considerably to 250 times the number of cores. You should never ever get there. If you do, you would have wasted about 2 minutes of time where a possibly non-optimal number of threads were running. Those threads however would all have to be blocking for that long, not exactly a typical execution pattern for a thread. On the other hand, if these threads are all waiting on the same kind of resource they are likely to just take turns, adding more threads cannot improve throughput.
Long story short, the thread pool will work well if you run threads that execute quickly (seconds at most) and don't block for a long time. You probably ought to consider creating your own Thread objects when your code doesn't match that pattern.
Well, if your bottleneck is ONLY processors, then it might make sense, but that would ignore all memory and other i/o bottlenecks, and chances are at least your cache memory is throwing page faults and other events that would slow the threads.
I'd trust the library myself. Threads wait for all kinds of things, and you don't want your application to slow down because it can't spawn a new thread, even though most of the rest are just sleeping, waiting for some event or resource.
Measure your application under a variety of thread:processor ratios. Come to conclusions based on hard data about your application. Accept no arguments from first principles about what performance you should get, only what you do get matters.

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